Notations on a Police Officer Enumclaw Transcript Included

0:00 Thomas: Laughter and conversation could be heard around a long set of tables strung together to form a conference room configuration one early morning in downtown Enumclaw.

0:10 Thomas: Various Enumclaw based business owners and professionals conversed with each other about their weekend while helping themselves to complimentary coffee and donuts.

0:18 Thomas: As the laughter and conversation carried on, it eventually became time for the reason of the gathering to kick off, at which point everyone took their seats around the large conference table.

0:29 Thomas: Upon starting the meeting, one by one, different individuals stood up and gave a 30 second introduction to their business and the services they provided.

0:38 Thomas: Eventually, they made it around to an individual representing a business by the name of Notation Printing.

0:44 Thomas: Notation Printing, he described, is a marketing, design, and printing production house meant to help local businesses get business cards, signage, and more.

0:52 Thomas: Websites, and more.

0:54 Thomas: All geared, of course, for small businesses.

0:57 Thomas: This group of Enumclaw business owners were members of an organization by the name of BNI, short for Business Network International.

1:05 Thomas: Like the Salt Shaker Christian Bookstore, Notation Printing was an organization that was owned and operated by Sound Doctrine Church.

1:13 Thomas: Notation wasn't a non profit like the Salt Shaker, but nevertheless, it existed to serve the community in a different way, specifically small and local businesses.

1:22 Thomas: Located on the Located on Cole Street, Enumclaw's main street, right across from the post office, Notation was frequented by numerous Enumclaw businesses.

1:30 Thomas: Some of these included doctors, dentist offices, attorneys, restaurants, and even farmers.

1:37 Thomas: One regular by the name of Richard would come in several times a week to use Notation's business card services that he resold to his own customers because of how, quote, easy the Notation folks are to work with.

1:51 Thomas: Richard himself was a Farmer and would regularly bring by farm fresh chicken and duck eggs to sell, which notation employees were always excited to buy.

2:02 Thomas: As with the salt shaker notation, positive rapport within the community could be attributed in large part because of the way it was operated.

2:10 Thomas: While it was a for-profit entity, it embodied the same type of service and dedication to its customers.

2:17 Thomas: That was common among any endeavor undertaken by Sound Doctrine Church or its members.

2:23 Thomas: Long before the days of notation, however, members of this particular church were regularly finding new ways to serve in the community.

2:30 Thomas: What they did not realize at the same time they came into Enumclaw in the late 90s, however, is that this would catch the attention of a police officer who had joined the force only a couple of years before, and he did not like what he saw.

2:51 Thomas: On May 28th, 1996, a new patrol officer joined the Enumclaw Police Department.

2:57 Thomas: The name of this officer was Grant McCall.

3:00 Thomas: Throughout his career within the police department, McCall held a number of various positions.

3:05 Thomas: Starting out as a patrol officer, he was later assigned a role as an investigator, detective, and finally sergeant.

3:12 Thomas: Early on in McCall's career, only a couple of years after he became an officer, he became aware of a new church entering Enumclaw.

3:20 Thomas: This church was called Sound Doctrine.

3:22 Thomas: As it would turn out, McCall considered himself quite the devout Christian and thought it was important to incorporate his particular brand of Christianity into his police duty.

3:33 Thomas: Arguably, McCall's most important or pivotal doctrinal belief was specific to the phrase, Bearing fruit.

3:41 Thomas: When talking about fruit in the context of the Bible, we would usually hear phrases or verses relevant to the fruits of the spirit, or a tree that bears good fruit.

3:51 Thomas: These allegorical teachings reference virtues characterized by people who live the Christian faith.

3:58 Thomas: McCall's doctrinal understanding on fruit, however, is quite different from anything found in the Gospels.

4:04 Thomas: McCall's belief was that fruit, as it is referred to in the Bible, refers instead to procreation.

4:11 Thomas: What is it about that statement that is a reflection of your own opinion?

4:17 Thomas: Well, you have to understand the term fruit.

4:19 Thomas: Okay.

4:20 Thomas: Go ahead.

4:21 Thomas: In the Bible, fruit in the New Testament.

4:24 Thomas: is typically referred to as what a Christian produces.

4:29 Thomas: In other words, if I'm a father, and I have a wife and we're married, and we have children, we've produced fruit.

4:37 Thomas: Now, if you take it one step further, for example, when I go out on Saturdays to outreach, I go to people and I either knock on their door, and I present the gospel to them, or I'll do follow up somewhere with kids on the bus, and ask them to come to church, so on and so forth.

4:51 Thomas: If those kids come, or if they end up getting saved, that is fruit to what we call our account the church collectively as a whole.

5:00 Thomas: So we're reproducing other Christians.

5:02 Thomas: As he put it, if I have a wife and we're married and we have children, we've produced more.

5:07 Thomas: In other words, McCall's belief in regards to producing fruit is sexual, and relevant only in the context of having children.

5:17 Thomas: This of course is nonsensical, for many reasons.

5:19 Thomas: Christ himself never married, nor did Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament.

5:25 Thomas: By McCall's logic, neither Paul, many of his disciples, nor Christ himself ever produced any fruit for the gospel.

5:34 Thomas: One of the verses specifically dealing with the subject of fruit says that every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

5:43 Thomas: If McCall's supposition that producing children is what is meant by bearing fruit, Christ himself would have been condemned.

5:51 Thomas: Beyond being nonsensical, however, this view that the biblical fruit is Children and or procreation is one very important word when it comes to McCall.

6:01 Thomas: And that is perversion.

6:02 Thomas: It is a warped or twisted view of a concept that is written in plain, simple to understand words.

6:09 Thomas: The point here, however, isn't for this to turn into a theological lesson.

6:14 Thomas: Instead, we first need to establish the lens through which McCall views the world.

6:19 Thomas: For him, the gospel and its purpose is primarily one wherein procreation is the highest importance, as opposed to what's written in the Gospels.

6:30 Thomas: Living a righteous life devoted to God in all aspects.

6:34 Thomas: With this in mind, it becomes even more concerning in part because he feels it's necessary to go and share this sexualized version of Christianity to kids.

6:45 Thomas: Now besides being wholly inappropriate sharing this brand of Christianity with minors, he did so while they were a captive audience on a bus.

6:54 Thomas: They must ride to get to and from school.

6:57 Thomas: What's even more telling about this particular account given by McCall isn't just the creepy nature of what he's recounting.

7:04 Thomas: It's the fact that he was given the floor in a courtroom setting under oath with plenty of people watching and cameras rolling to express his absolute high priority when it comes to his doctrinal beliefs.

7:14 Thomas: And this is what he chose.

7:16 Thomas: Take note.

7:17 Thomas: He did not say healing the sick or giving to the poor.

7:21 Thomas: No, when provided an open floor to share his perspective, he focused on the idea.

7:26 Thomas: A, of sexualization, and B, expressing these concepts to minors.

7:32 Thomas: Again, if you think this sounds creepy, just wait until what we have in store for you later on in this episode.

7:38 Thomas: As it would turn out, McCall's beliefs would come into contact with Sound Doctrine Church members repeatedly throughout the years.

7:44 Thomas: At one point, a member of Sound Doctrine Church was pulled over on two separate occasions.

7:49 Thomas: In both, when asking the officer why they were being pulled over, the officer responded that they were just welcoming them to the neighborhood.

7:57 Thomas: Another church member who rented an apartment within Enumclaw was woken up at 2am and Enumclaw police officers forcefully entered with their guns drawn.

8:07 Thomas: When asked why they had entered his apartment, the officers responded that they were in the area and noticed the door was unlocked.

8:15 Thomas: Somewhere along the way, however, a rumor began to spread that Sound Doctrine Church did not allow members to speak to their own family.

8:21 Thomas: families.

8:22 Thomas: We do not have time here to address this in detail.

8:24 Thomas: However, this claim was easily, knowably false.

8:28 Thomas: The church in question held very closely to a whole gospel message, which included a devout daily devotion to scripture and serving both one another.

8:38 Thomas: and the community.

8:39 Thomas: This level of devotion took up a lot of time for individuals as they were often busy in work required to serve the community in a wide variety of capacities.

8:50 Thomas: Some individuals who were not members of the church took issue with this for one reason or another.

8:55 Thomas: As a result, They would spread rumors around the community of the church being a cult that didn't allow non members to contact people within the church.

9:04 Thomas: This was despite the fact that many members regularly had conversations with people who didn't attend the church, and some of these individuals would even leave.

9:14 Thomas: attend the church services on occasion.

9:16 Thomas: In fact, it was often family members who didn't belong to the church who stopped communicating with those who attended because they didn't share the same seriousness about the gospel and service.

9:28 Thomas: Eventually, however, these rumors made their way to the Enumclaw Police Department as some of the more sinister members of the community would call police claiming they were being barred from talking to family members.

9:40 Thomas: within the church.

9:42 Thomas: Grant McCall became the officer who received these calls.

9:46 Thomas: As a result, McCall would perform welfare checks on members of the church.

9:50 Thomas: Each time, according to his own testimony, he always found the individuals who he was checking on to be healthy Happy, and seeing nothing amiss.

10:00 Thomas: Despite this fact, doing these little welfare checks became a convenient way for the rumor mill, along with Detective Grant McCall, to harass Sound Doctrine Church members whenever they felt necessary.

10:12 Thomas: It is important to re emphasize, that at no point, During any of these harassment sessions was anything found out of order?

10:20 Thomas: In one instance, a 19 year old man made a decision to join Sound Doctrine Church.

10:25 Thomas: Ironically, this was a result of receiving a free book from the Salt Shaker Christian bookstore.

10:31 Thomas: A book could be considered a longer version of a flyer for anyone familiar with the last video.

10:37 Thomas: But this all but disputed McCall's original claim that the church made no effort to reach out to individuals within the community.

10:45 Thomas: Not only did they reach out, but the outreach was successful.

10:49 Thomas: However, with small town gossip making its way to this 19 year old's stepmother, She quickly found that any cases where somebody needs to be harassed in reference to Sound Doctrine Church, Grant McCall was the guy.

11:02 Thomas: As such, McCall showed up to this 19 year old's residence just as he was on his way out of his parents house, choosing instead to move in with a friend from the church.

11:12 Thomas: McCall stood in his way, badge, gun, and all, and asked him to wait 19 year old's stepmother.

11:20 Thomas: After chatting for a short period of time, he returned to talk with the young man.

11:25 Thomas: So why are you wanting to leave your parents house, he asked.

11:28 Thomas: Well, for a lot of reasons, being that they've become increasingly abusive, would be one of them.

11:34 Thomas: My dad even threatened to burn all of my Bibles.

11:37 Thomas: Look, I understand that.

11:38 Thomas: Families sometimes say things they don't mean, but you really should try and work things out with them.

11:44 Thomas: There's no need to leave, McCall remarked.

11:47 Thomas: After explaining to McCall that a part of why he wanted to leave It was because he wanted to join Sound Doctrine Church and move on with his life, McCall became increasingly indignant.

11:57 Thomas: At one point, the 19 year old even mentioned the book he had been reading, titled Even the Demons Believe, which ignited his newfound interest in Christianity.

12:06 Thomas: McCall scoffed and said, yes, I am aware of that book.

12:09 Thomas: After further attempts to detain the young man and attempts to bully him into staying with his abusive parents, McCall finally relented, saying, look, You haven't committed any crimes here and there isn't anything I can do to force you to stay here since you're an adult.

12:23 Thomas: However, I must really advise you to stay with your family.

12:28 Thomas: Am I free to go?

12:29 Thomas: The young man asked, again ignoring his warnings.

12:32 Thomas: Yes, McCall replied.

12:33 Thomas: After which point, the young man got into the car with his friends, waiting at the end of the driveway.

12:38 Thomas: And he left without ever looking back.

12:40 Thomas: McCall's bullying, controlling, and outright unhinged conduct wasn't specific to members of a particular church he didn't like.

12:48 Thomas: Numerous members of the community reported their unhappy encounters with McCall as well.

12:53 Thomas: In one incident, a woman wrote an email to the Enumclaw Police Department in regards to an encounter with McCall that took 63 year old mother, who also happened to be a nurse.

13:05 Thomas: In the incident, McCall discovered that the woman's dog was sitting in her car.

13:08 Thomas: The woman returned to her car.

13:12 Thomas: McCall began berating her.

13:15 Thomas: Every time the woman attempted to explain her situation, McCall would interrupt her, talk down to her to the point where she was driven to tears.

13:24 Thomas: McCall was described as being bright red, and Sweating, and the woman stated that she was worried for his health even after being disrespected.

13:34 Thomas: The situation was so devastating to the woman, her daughter felt the need to write an email to the department, expressing just how badly it had affected her mother.

13:43 Thomas: My mother said he consistently interrupted her, talked down to her, would not let her explain herself.

13:48 Thomas: and mumbled something about her under his breath as he walked away.

13:53 Thomas: She is distraught.

13:55 Thomas: She called me crying.

13:57 Thomas: She also explained that he was bright red, sweating, and obviously overheated himself.

14:03 Thomas: She's worried he has heat stroke.

14:06 Thomas: The lady is worried for his health even after being disrespected.

14:10 Thomas: This officer should be made aware of that fact.

14:14 Thomas: There are no records as to if any disciplinary action was taken against McCall as a result of the complaint.

14:20 Thomas: As much as members of Enumclaw's community had difficulties with McCall, Even fellow police officers had their problems with him as well.

14:29 Thomas: In fact, McCall's anger grew so out of control that at one point, he even pulled a gun on his fellow officers.

14:42 Thomas: Despite the number of positions held within the Enumclaw Police Department, Unhappy interactions continued to take place between Grant McCall and other members within the force.

14:52 Thomas: An officer filed a formal complaint against McCall in regards to a polygraph test he was asked to take in an effort to become employed by the police department.

15:01 Thomas: The complaint alleges that McCall spread false and or personal information on more than one occasion that was in regards to a polygraph test the officer took in order for him to gain employment with the city of Enumclaw.

15:15 Thomas: Presumably unhappy that this officer had received a rank higher than McCall, McCall allegedly brought up the polygraph test and misrepresented it and other personal information to at least one other officer.

15:29 Thomas: He would allegedly mention this polygraph test to the officer himself as well on a regular basis.

15:36 Thomas: As a result, an attorney by the name of Don Austin was hired to investigate the situation.

15:42 Thomas: As it would turn out, however, the attorney responsible had a pretty clear bias in favor of McCall.

15:48 Thomas: When questioning McCall, he seemed to take just about everything he said at face value.

15:52 Thomas: For example, when questioning McCall in regards to the polygraph test, McCall simply claimed he did not remember doing it.

16:00 Thomas: The attorney was fully satisfied after McCall tried to refresh his recollection by searching through his computer for something else he was doing at the time.

16:10 Thomas: He was able to find some training he was conducting of another officer around that time, and the attorney had exactly what he needed, apparently.

16:18 Thomas: Case closed.

16:19 Thomas: Now, you might be thinking, Hey, that seems like a fine investigation.

16:22 Thomas: After all, he has an alibi.

16:25 Thomas: That might be true in another scenario, except for the fact that McCall's signature Is on the polygraph documentation.

16:34 Thomas: According to Don Austin's own report, it says, quote, gradually, he McCall was able to reconstruct that he was involved in the background investigation, but was doing field training during the dates identified above, he still did not independently recall the applicant's polygraph.

16:51 Thomas: Even though he had signed off on some of the paperwork and signed off on the final report to Chief Zoll.

16:59 Thomas: The question being answered here was simply this.

17:02 Thomas: Was McCall involved in any way in the officer's polygraph and background investigation?

17:08 Thomas: There are documents that the attorney acknowledged that prove yes.

17:12 Thomas: End of story.

17:14 Thomas: It didn't stop there, however.

17:16 Thomas: After ignoring McCall's signature on the paper, this attorney went out of his way to find anything and everything he possibly could to paint the officer bringing the complaint as not guilty.

17:27 Thomas: Credible.

17:28 Thomas: The officer, in a conversation with Don Austin and his own attorney, expressed his frustration that everyone seemed to be taking McCall's alleged falsehood at face value while turning and pointing the finger at him.

17:41 Thomas: I was absolutely shocked by McCall's responses to you in that investigation because I had no idea he would twist the truth to the point that he did.

17:50 Thomas: Our department is in just all kinds of shambles.

17:53 Thomas: I'm reading a report where one of our Guild presidents senior officer, Is blatantly misleading you in your investigation that ended up drawing a conclusion that he's not even, he's not the one that let out that information.

18:06 Thomas: Management doesn't care that he let it out.

18:08 Thomas: Nobody seems to care that he was the one that gave that personal information out.

18:13 Thomas: And I'm reading your report going.

18:15 Thomas: It's right there in front of everyone.

18:17 Thomas: The officer went on to claim that McCall was regularly disparaging him behind his back in official meetings.

18:24 Thomas: It's to support that belief where here's McCall in these meetings openly discussing things about me being untrustworthy, that I'm controlling.

18:33 Thomas: I control my wife.

18:34 Thomas: She doesn't think for herself.

18:36 Thomas: And these are statements that are made to disparage me, that have absolutely no place, and is no one's business in open forum meetings sponsored by the city, but management allowed it.

18:47 Thomas: Due to the ongoing stress caused by McCall's slanderous accusations against the officer and the number of officers McCall was successful in turning against him.

18:56 Thomas: The officer's wife eventually put in a public records request into the Enumclaw Police Department.

19:02 Thomas: The officer was then questioned as to why his wife was making the request, and officers started openly discussing the possibility of terminating him.

19:11 Thomas: Back on the topic of the polygraph, however, the officer seemed genuinely confused as to why Don Austin, the attorney responsible for investigating this situation, seemed intent on ignoring the fact that McCall's signature.

19:29 Thomas: I'm not seeing things that indicate McCall was doing the polygraph, and that seemed to be Yeah, I do.

19:36 Thomas: Yeah, he did.

19:41 Thomas: Yeah.

19:44 Thomas: With regard to the things in the timesheets and the phone records, can you understand how that would generate some questions for you?

19:50 Thomas: I understand it, but why the primary focus?

19:54 Thomas: When you have in your hands a signed form from the polygrapher, that's done at the time of the polygraph by McCall?

20:00 Thomas: When the report was finalized by Don Austin, to no one's surprise, McCall was cleared of all wrongdoing and the officer who made the initial complaint was proclaimed to be not guilty.

20:11 Thomas: As a result of Don Austin's investigation, Enumclaw Police Chief Bob Hubler issued a memo outlining the aftermath.

20:19 Thomas: In an irony of ironies, the officer who originally made the complaint against McCall was claimed to be in violation of police policies for many reasons.

20:30 Thomas: But including the claim that You initiated a complaint against Officer Grant McCall that was unfounded and baseless and that you lacked credibility during the investigation of that complaint in violation of our department's statement of values, honesty, and integrity in the following policies.

20:47 Thomas: Nowhere in the report was any mention that McCall lied about his involvement in the officer's polygraph test.

20:53 Thomas: or background investigation.

20:54 Thomas: The chief of police went on to write, quote, I have determined with the seriousness of the offenses you have committed, two actions will be initiated.

21:02 Thomas: First, you will be reduced in rank to the classification of officer.

21:07 Thomas: Second, you will be discharged from employment by the city of Enumclaw.

21:12 Thomas: Your reduction and discharge are effective December 14th, 2018.

21:18 Thomas: You will be contacted by a department supervisor to coordinate uniform and equipment turn in, notwithstanding the larger circumstances.

21:26 Thomas: I thank you for your past service, and wish you well in your future endeavors.

21:31 Thomas: There is far more to this situation, way more than we have time to cover in this episode, but suffice it to say, McCall's dedication to lying and covering up those lies is something that was not secluded to a single instance.

21:43 Thomas: Incident.

21:44 Thomas: This would not be the last of McCall's documented misconduct within the Enumclaw Police Department.

21:49 Thomas: A different complaint was filed by a records specialist within the Enumclaw Police Department against Grant McCall and other officers.

21:57 Thomas: The complaint outlines how McCall and other officers use the MCM, this is essentially their internal police messaging system, to quote, send derogatory, defamatory, obscene, disrespectful, sexually suggestive, harassing, or otherwise appropriate.

22:13 Thomas: Over the past few months, I have reviewed the instant messaging system within Spillman, MCMs, for a public records request made by an attorney on behalf of a former employee.

22:26 Thomas: The request asks for, among other things, any records of any city of Enumclaw employee referring to a woman as a b h or s or any comments which related to the sex life or sexual activity of a female.

22:41 Thomas: In reviewing the MCMs, I did find responsive records to this request, but more predominantly, I found a litany of abuses of the use of this system ranging from idiotic to offensive.

22:52 Thomas: This investigation spanned messages that occurred over the course of five years.

22:59 Thomas: There are way too many obscene messages that were sent by McCall over this time period to cover here, so we'll just cover a few.

23:06 Thomas: In regards to a man whom McCall and another officer were discussing, as to the spelling of his last name, McCall jokingly referred to him as a transgender, after which he said, quote, No, just joking, he's from England.

23:23 Thomas: Another officer referred to an elderly woman as a crotchety old bag, at which McCall agreed and laughed.

23:30 Thomas: There were many other weird comments as well, many of which I will not be sharing here, but one in which McCall referred to licking a cigar.

23:39 Thomas: Comments that are weird, even for weird people.

23:43 Thomas: Later, when another officer was discussing a cigar lounge he liked, McCall asked out of left field, Oh! Dancing girls?

23:51 Thomas: To which the officer responded, no, a classy place.

23:55 Thomas: The pattern many of these messages helped further establish is the weird, creepy, needlessly sexualizing or perverting of the normal or innocuous comments made in casual conversation.

24:08 Thomas: Not to mention the fact that this communication method was for internal, official police business.

24:14 Thomas: But that is apparently something government employees.

24:16 Thomas: do not have to worry about.

24:18 Thomas: According to a memo issued on November 1st, 2017, all allegations made in regards to improper MCM use by Grant McCall were sustained, listing out the specific policy that he violated.

24:32 Thomas: In response to the findings, the police chief Bob Hubler said that the department was taking the issue seriously and had taken active steps.

24:42 Thomas: No mention was made on whether any disciplinary actions were taken against McCall.

24:47 Thomas: Years before this incident, however, McCall had an even darker moment within the Enumclaw Police Department, an incident that all but solidified there was virtually nothing he could not get away with.

24:57 Thomas: On December 29th, 2010, At around noon, an officer by the name of Tony Ryan had a discussion with McCall in the squad room.

25:06 Thomas: Eventually, a heated disagreement arose, after which McCall threatened Ryan and other officers by proclaiming that after the current police chief was gone, he levied a threat to That was something to the effect of everyone in the department would soon be responsible for everything that they said.

25:22 Thomas: Following the conversation, McCall stormed out of the room.

25:25 Thomas: Other officers remarked that his rage was clearly visible in his demeanor.

25:30 Thomas: At some point following the conversation, McCall retrieved a shotgun, which he began clearing in the Enumclaw Police Department hallway in clear view and earshot of other officers.

25:43 Thomas: Clearly threatened by what was unfolding before them.

25:46 Thomas: Officers again remarked of the enraged demeanor McCall maintained as he stormed throughout the precinct.

25:52 Thomas: After clearing the shotgun, McCall stormed out of the building only to return a few minutes later to retrieve another firearm, then leave with it in his possession.

26:02 Thomas: As a result of McCall's threatening behavior, he was placed on paid administrative leave.

26:07 Thomas: leave.

26:08 Thomas: McCall's ID card, badge, and weapons were all taken from him.

26:12 Thomas: He was also barred from accessing any police department vehicles, accessing any city buildings, including the police station.

26:20 Thomas: Lastly, McCall was to undergo a psych evaluation to determine whether or not he was fit for service and could return to the force.

26:28 Thomas: Nevertheless, however, according to the investigation report, It says, quote, Although Detective McCall's behavior is concerning, the investigation report does not provide ample evidence to warrant termination.

26:40 Thomas: And who is responsible for investigating McCall's conduct?

26:45 Thomas: None other than Don Austin.

26:47 Thomas: That is the very same attorney who would later clear McCall of all wrongdoing after lying about a fellow police officer.

26:54 Thomas: Allegedly.

26:55 Thomas: Apparently, threatening and pulling a firearm on fellow officers warrants a paid vacation and no further disciplinary action.

27:04 Thomas: Which just as a fun aside, what do you think would happen to a Walmart employee if he or she threatened co workers and then pulled a gun on them?

27:13 Thomas: I'll leave that one to you.

27:15 Thomas: to speculate.

27:15 Thomas: Underpinning all of these various incidents, however, are even more issues with McCall.

27:21 Thomas: And could you believe it?

27:22 Thomas: It gets even worse.

27:30 Thomas: When it comes to destroying individuals, or even a church he doesn't like, there is no limit to what McCall was willing to do.

27:39 Thomas: This is especially when we take into account McCall's creepy pastime of teaching procreation to kids McCall's opportunity to act on his creepiness came when the daughter of a woman who had a personal vendetta against Sound Doctrine Church made an assault claim against the pastor within the church.

27:58 Thomas: As it would turn out, McCall's weird, creepy, perverted perspective would be his weapon of choice in the events that would unfold next.

28:06 Thomas: This brings us to a forensic psychologist by the name of Dr.

28:10 Thomas: John Ewell.

28:11 Thomas: Dr.

28:11 Thomas: Ewell's expertise was specifically in the area of human memory in both children and adults and in their relevance within interviews as well as credibility assessment.

28:22 Thomas: Much of his work in this field had been specific to abuse allegations along with proper interview procedure to determine the credibility of witnesses and complainants.

28:33 Thomas: Since 1964, Dr.

28:34 Thomas: Ewell's research focused heavily upon memory, credibility assessment, and interview techniques.

28:40 Thomas: That being said, Dr.

28:42 Thomas: Ewell's provided the opportunity to listen to an audio version of the interview conducted by Detective McCall so he could provide his analysis of the way that it was conducted.

28:51 Thomas: Well, not all of the interview, as McCall conveniently shut off the recording for a portion of the time, and yes, that really happened.

29:00 Thomas: Nevertheless, here's Dr.

29:02 Thomas: Ewell's response.

29:03 Thomas: I mean, this entire interview is not acceptable.

29:09 Thomas: Every single act, alleged act, is, is suggested first by the officer and, every act?

29:17 Thomas: Yes, every act.

29:18 Thomas: Now this looked so damning to the prosecution's case, he accused the expert of being an advocate for the defense team.

29:25 Thomas: She's not given a chance to respond.

29:30 Thomas: So how do you get to that question?

29:32 Thomas: Tell me what happened, and then what happened, and what else.

29:36 Thomas: Do you remember something about what happened with you?

29:39 Thomas: What you want, the more information that comes spontaneously from the complainant, the stronger foundation you have to build a case.

29:48 Thomas: Now, you You testified on direct that you, you know, you take no position in this, but you seem to be kind of advocating right now.

30:01 Thomas: No, what I'm an advocate about, certainly nothing to do with the issues here, is I'm just so sorry that this kind of poor quality interviewing is going on.

30:11 Thomas: in the 21st century.

30:12 Thomas: We don't need this.

30:14 Thomas: What we need are good quality interviews to be done where, where, whether she's a victim or not, whether she gets to tell her story so we can evaluate her story instead of it all being led by what the officer is looking for.

30:27 Thomas: And that's what I'm, I'm an advocate for good investigation not for one side or the other in this case.

30:35 Thomas: And, and that's because, check that.

30:43 Thomas: Now, your testimony, I want to go back to But it didn't stop there.

31:38 Thomas: Dr.

31:38 Thomas: Ewell went on to demonstrate why the interview itself showcased McCall as being the primary accuser in the case, and not the alleged victim.

31:47 Thomas: Well, as I mentioned a moment ago in cross examination, that the main thing was just that, you know, Every allegation comes from the detective.

31:58 Thomas: He's the one who suggests all of the things that happened.

32:02 Thomas: And she either agrees or disagrees with him, but she's not, she isn't Right from the get go, he tells her why she's there and what the allegations are.

32:12 Thomas: She says, you've been molested that it happened with somebody living in your house.

32:17 Thomas: It happened at a certain time ago.

32:19 Thomas: He shouldn't be giving that information.

32:21 Thomas: He should be saying, why are you here today?

32:24 Thomas: And pursuing that which a good interviewer wouldn't have done might either clarify that it's a true or a false allegation.

32:31 Thomas: Where were they when these alleged acts occurred and, and, you know, how did they unfold?

32:37 Thomas: There's nothing here.

32:39 Thomas: A proper interview, we'd have a narrative.

32:41 Thomas: We'd, we'd know whether this is based, we'd be in a much better position to know whether this is based upon experience or invention, or responding to the leading nature of these questions.

32:53 Thomas: I don't know this interviewee, so I don't know how susceptible she is or is not a suggestion.

32:58 Thomas: I can say that this is how, if you wanted to do an interview to make suggestions to a complainant, this is how to do it.

33:07 Thomas: So, in terms of the quality of the interview, in terms of its risk of, of suggestion, it's extremely high.

33:14 Thomas: The term that's typically used in the literature is creative memory.

33:19 Thomas: And it means that a person has been, that suggestions have been made that lead the person to create either details of a memory or an entire memory.

33:30 Thomas: Not a, a deliberate attempt by them, they just, this is just a process that happens in their mind as a result of suggestions.

33:39 Thomas: The reality is that there was a crime that was committed in this case.

33:43 Thomas: However, it is not the crime that was alleged by Grant McCall.

33:47 Thomas: The crime, among others, was McCall inflicting his gross, perverted way of thinking onto a minor in an attempt to destroy a church who did not share his perversion.

33:58 Thomas: Everything comes back to McCall's depraved version of Christianity, discussing procreation with a group of unwilling miners all trapped with him on a bus.

34:08 Thomas: Beyond this, however, the trial surrounding McCall's allegations against the Sound Doctrine Church pastor had its own set of outlandish events thanks to the governmental corruption of King County.

34:19 Thomas: However, the trial itself will be the focus of a future episode.

34:23 Thomas: Flash forward to the time of this video, and Grant McCall is still employed by the City Not only that, he has since even been promoted within the Enumclaw Police Department as was covered within the local newspaper, The Courier Herald.

34:37 Thomas: Which, by the way, while The Courier Herald wrote a gushing article highlighting McCall's promotion to the rank of sergeant, I had a really hard time finding a story on McCall pulling a shotgun on his fellow officers.

34:51 Thomas: As I'm sure you've discovered, today's media, whether national or even local, has a vested interest in covering up or ignoring government corruption on any level.

35:00 Thomas: Sadly, this means if you want to attend a church that isn't compliant with a local police officer's personal perverted beliefs, it means he can get your church shut down with the help of the local government and media.

35:13 Thomas: Keep in mind, McCall Universi Used allegations he fabricated to drag an entire church into a court case with the sole purpose of destroying it.

35:22 Thomas: Here's McCall stating that the entire case revolves around the church as a whole.

35:27 Thomas: Only later to change his tune once the light started getting shined on his motives for fabricating the allegations.

35:36 Thomas: Well, the entire case revolves around a couple of things.

35:39 Thomas: One of them is the church as a whole.

35:42 Thomas: We've received complaints from people about the church.

35:49 Thomas: So, the, the Sound Doctrine Church really doesn't have anything to do with the investigation at all.

35:53 Thomas: It's just that some of the spiritual things involve the kind of money the waters are looking to have money for the waters.

35:59 Thomas: But the Sound Doctrine Church has got really nothing to do with these allegations at all.

36:05 Thomas: And just as a side note Be sure to follow the Consider podcast on X to stay up to date on even more examples of police and governmental corruption, since clearly the media companies have no interest in covering it.

36:17 Thomas: And in case you missed it earlier, the answer is yes, at the time of this video, Officer Grant McCall is still employed by the Enumclaw Police Department at the rank of sergeant.

36:29 Thomas: In closing here, we do not know for certain why Enumclaw has continued to defend and protect McCall's misconduct.

36:36 Thomas: However, the officer who McCall successfully undermined to the point of getting him fired had his own opinion on the matter.

36:43 Thomas: And this all stems because the city doesn't want to address or look at the big picture, which is they hired somebody they shouldn't have.

36:50 Thomas: Now they're trying to cover up the turd, not the officer, the information.

36:54 Thomas: And they're blaming me and they're trying to make me the scapegoat.

36:58 Thomas: Management knows what's going on.

37:00 Thomas: Administration knows what's going on.

37:03 Thomas: The old mayor knew what was going on.

37:05 Thomas: I can only assume the brand new mayor knows what's going on.

37:09 Thomas: They still brief the old mayor on what's going on.

37:11 Thomas: I sat in the patrol room eating lunch one day when she went in there and I could hear them talking about it.

37:17 Thomas: She isn't part of the city government anymore and they're still keeping her in the loop.

37:22 Thomas: So whatever your feelings may be about the particular church that's been referenced throughout this series, it is undeniable that regardless of whether you're a non profit bookstore, a small business, a 63 year old nurse, or a fellow police officer, there is little Grant McCall will not do to destroy anyone in his way.

37:39 Thomas: Notation, the storefront that, just like the Salt Shaker Christian bookstore, meant to serve the community, was yet another casualty of a corrupt government, which leveraged and protected a police officer like Grant McCall.

37:52 Thomas: Now you might be thinking that everything ends with Officer Grant McCall.

37:56 Thomas: However, it doesn't.

37:57 Thomas: It goes even further.

37:59 Thomas: As you will learn in an upcoming episode, McCall was able to find common cause with an individual just as corrupt and possibly even more sociopathic than himself.

38:10 Thomas: For more information on what we've discussed in this series, as well as even more pertaining to serving justice and justice alone, be sure to subscribe to the consider podcast by visiting consider.

38:22 Thomas: info.

38:22 Thomas: Thanks for tuning in and I will see you in the next episode.

38:26 Thomas: enumclaw.com.